I have noticed lately that a couple of the “big” Catholic blogs have had some debates about the Traditional Latin Mass and what the Motu Proprio will mean. Mark Shea has a couple of posts here and here which discuss the possibility of the Motu Proprio. Mr. Shea expresses his lack of interest, and several other commenters seem interested in expressing their satisfaction with the Novus Ordo Mass and disinterest or even criticisms of the Traditional Mass. Over at Jimmy Akin’s blog, this discussion of prayers in the old Mass perceived of anti-Semitic becomes quite an argument, with some unpleasant comments from both sides. These arguments, especially those at Jimmy Akin’s blog, go on a long time, and I cannot summarize all of them. However, I am fascinated by the nastiness of such debates, and how quickly the issue of rites of the Mass becomes a contentious one.
My background, as a convert from no religious background, who was baptized as an adult in the extreme liberal world of Santa Clara University’s Campus Ministry, is somewhat different. Much of my introduction to true Catholicism, and not just what was taught in my rather pedestrian RCIA class, was from websites and blogs like the ones I mention above. However, I had somehow come to think, foolishly, that there were only two sides to the debate: bongo-beating liberal liturgical abusers on the one hand and Latin-loving orthodox Catholics on the other. I was wrong, obviously, but I still do not entirely see what the great division is between the people who favor orthodox liturgy in either the Novus Ordo or the Tridentine rites.
I have noticed that there is a sort of myth, at least I believe it to be a myth, that those of us who go to the Traditional Mass tend to be unpleasant “liturgical police” who want everything to be absolutely perfect or else we will declare the priest a heretic. I have not noticed any such thing. Perhaps it is true of some people, but as far as I can tell most Traditional Mass-goers (traditionalists? this is a difficult word, as so many people, when presented with the kind of argument I am making, say essentially “no, a traditionalist is just one of the mean ones”) are just like anyone else. When I go to the Traditional Mass in Santa Clara, at Our Mother of Perpetual Help, I talk to people who were going to that chapel for years, before its status was normalized. I never went there then, because I am intent on obeying the rules and going only to approved Masses, so I expected that surely at least those people would be bitter and angry. But the ones I talked to were not. They were friendly, clearly have a preference for the Traditional Mass, but even there I have never heard anyone speculate that the Novus Ordo Mass is illegitimate. Perhaps my experience is unique, but even if it is I can say that most Traditional Mass-goers are just normal people with a preference.
I prefer the Traditional Mass. I do believe it is a better reflection of the Catholic faith, and that the changes suggested by Vatican II should have been smaller and more organic. If I did not prefer it, I simply wouldn’t go to it. However, I also recognize that if the Novus Ordo Mass were celebrated the way it should be, most simple Catholics who haven’t studied the matter would probably not see much difference. Thus, it seems to me that since all of us who are orthodox should care about liturgical correctness, the Traditional Mass-goers should not be held in the kind of suspicion that we very often are. While it happens sometimes that a traditionalist will attack the Novus Ordo Mass and its attendees, it is not common, and I find that often the Novus Ordo supporter in a debate is on the defensive against the semi-mythical “mean trad” before the debate even starts.
Dear Daniel,
You asked about the situation in Ireland re the TLM – this is outlined at the Latin Mass Society of Ireland website (www.latinmassireland.org). Basically there is regular (weekly) provision in Dublin, Donegal, and a few sites in the West with a scattering of less regular Masses elsewhere (excluding SSPX and a few sedes who are loony even by sede standards and who are mostly engaged on ego-trips combining the TLM with liberal theology insofar as their responses can be called theology). The ICK is about to formally move into Limerick which will be a big help. About half a dozen dioceses have no indult Masses, either because of episcopal hostility or lack of organisation/interest. I think the motu proprio will improve things a bit but not much as there will still be a shortage of resources & certain pressures on priests (including fear of being labelled a crank). A big problem is that Ireland has very little in the way of conservative/ traditionalist Catholic media of the same variety (certainly nothing on the American scale) so there is very little ability to spread the word (the big exception is a small magazine called the BRANDSMA REVIEW, run by Nick Lowry whose address you can get on the LMSI website – I think BRANDSMA has a website of its own).
First — I love the title for the new blog. The Ride of the Rohirrim is by far the most moving part of the LOTR — extrememly well written.
In response to your post, I would say that we have had much different experiences with Tridentine Rite Mass-goers. I am a student at one of the few orthodox Catholic universities here in the U.S., and I consider myself an orthodox Catholic myself. I would love to see the presence of ONE Roman rite, not the current fracture that exists in our beloved Church. I detest the abuses of the Novus Ordo with all my heart, and I, like you, prefer the incredible beauty of Tridentine Mass. However, since coming to this university last year, it was painfully obvious that the other young people on campus here who also preferred the Tridentine Mass were the opposite of what you suggest — in truth they were hard, bitter, and had no sense of humor about anything other than bashing on the Novus Ordo, priests who celebrate it (albeit some unfaithfully), and anyone who voiced disagreement with them. The lack of charity towards others among those of us who prefered the Tridentine Rite was incredible — at times, it could only be labeled as insidious and nasty.
While I do not give up hopes of a restored, unified Roman Rite, my experience here has lead me to believe that hope of this is not to be found among many of the young TLM attendees, if they are at all like the ones here at this university.
I do, however, have confidence, as always, in our Mother the Church. Little squabbles among the laity do little to change the fact that we are called to follow where she leads. If the Pope celebrates the Novus Ordo, then I accept that. And if he opens up the Tridentine Mass for more widespread use in this supposed motu proprio, I will accept that, too (AND REJOICE!!!).
I think what you need to understand, in order to understand the so-called “Rad-Trad” movement is what some of these people have had to go through. Granted, some are just cranks, and would be the same sort of people no matter where they were. But most are sincere, honest people who were driven (yes, driven) into the wilderness by the ministers the Church they love.
Have you ever had to stop your children’s game of “Name That Heresy” after one of Father Lib’s sermons? Have you ever been told that your large family is an offense against God, by a Catholic priest? Have you ever been denounced from the pulpit? Have you ever been asked to leave a parish?
The plain fact is that anyone who couldn’t or wouldn’t go along with the program was routinely marginalized, excluded, mocked and abused in many dioceses in this country. They have had to fight against their priests, their bishops and their Church, contrary to their habits and natures, in order to live as a Catholic and protect their own and their children’s faith.
Even today, people who should know better, such as Mark Shea, routinely mock and abuse them. If you cannot understand why they overreact to these things, it’s better to refrain from comment.
Hibernicus,
Thank you for the information. I went one time to the Traditional Mass at St. Patrick’s Academy in Islandeady, Co. Mayo, which was rather interesting…very small and subdued. I have never been to a Mass where I sat that close to the priest before. Thanks for the recommendations of websites as well, I’ll be sure to check those, at least before I talk to my traditional Catholic friends in Ireland.
Oiuy,
I don’t know what university it is (perhaps you don’t want to say for some reason, which is perfectly acceptable), but I am sorry you have had bad experiences with TLM attendees. I have noticed there are huge differences in what people say their TLM experiences have been. I wonder if there is an East/West divide, or perhaps a divide between whether it is a parish on its own or a TLM at another parish, or some other kind of divide. My guess is that its a matter of who one talks to. The only person I’ve met who seemed to fit the stereotype of the “mean trad” was one SSPX priest I met once…and even he was not hostile towards those who go to the Novus Ordo.
Well, goodness knows the Novus Ordo has its own share of snarling liturgical curmugeons . . . I think that Traditionalist Catholics have gotten a bad reputation for the usual reason: a few people are really obnoxious, and of course they’re more noticeable than the quiet, polite ones. Certainly I’ve known Traditionalists–even SSPXers–who were nothing but kind and charitable in their dealings with me.
Speaking as an orthodox Catholic who loves the Novus Ordo . . . I think that a lot of us tend to get defensive around Traditionalists partly because Traditionalism *is* to some extent a critique of the Novus Ordo, but mostly–again–because of the “bad apples” effect. Not that I think every Traditionalist is this way, but I *have* seen people on the internet declaring that the Novus Ordo is a sacrilege, or that it causes heresy, or that it’s invalid. This rankles, to say the least, with someone who finds in the Novus Ordo the source and summit of his spiritual life. And again, it’s always easiest to remember the annoying people, and then the stereotype gets propagated.
I must say–I *am* very impressed by your ability to articulate your liturgical beliefs without growing vituperative. It’s a talent that is sadly lacking on *all* sides of this debate.
Rose, thank you for your comment. I just posted a new thought about the “liturgical wars” which I believe addresses some of the points that you make in your comment. I think defensiveness is a key problem here: traditionalists are defensive because the NO is the normative mass and they feel left to the side, while NO types are defensive because their Mass is itself the subject of criticism from some traditionalists.
Daniel B, I think it is true that often traditionalists are made to feel unwelcome at liberal parishes. I was told, when I asked the director of my RCIA program if I could still find a Latin Mass to go to, that the Latin Mass is really old and is allowed for the few old, dying people who can’t live without it, but that it is no longer supported by the Church. I quickly stopped going to the Mission (College Chapel) and started attending a much better parish on the other side of town.
Rose;
It is true that there are a great many “Traditionalists” out here who would consider the Novus Orde “per se” as a sacrilege… more likely what they mean is that the lack of attention by priests to the rubrics governing it (yes, there are actually rubrics for the Novus Ordo!) has caused a great many abuses to become so institutionalized that it seems the Rite itself is sacriligious. The claim by supporters of the Novus Ordo that “when done as it was intended, it is almost indistinguishable from the Traditional Mass” does not change the FACT that in the overwhelming majority of parishes it is QUITE distinguishable from the Traditional Mass. The problem is not what is “in the books” but rather what has become the normative practice…
AS A CONVERT TO THE CATHOLIC FAITH FROM A SOLA SCRIPTURA, ANGLICAN/BAPTIST BACKGROUND AND ONE TIME (THANKS TO MY PROTESTANT UP BRINGING A HATER OF EVEN THE MENTION OF THE WORD CATHOLIC) IT WAS FOR ME THE CLASSIC, ANCIENT LATIN MASS I HAPPEN-CHANCE EXPERIENCED THAT SET ME ON THE ROAD TO CONVERTING TO THE BEAUTIFUL CATHOLIC-CHRISTIAN FAITH. IT WAS ALSO IN THE SAME BREATH MY ATTENDANCE AT ONE AFTER ANOTHER ABUSIVE PAULINE-NOVUS ORDO MASSES THAT OVER TIME DROVE ME AWAY FROM THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IN TOTAL DISGUST. HERE IN ORANGE COUNTY CALIFORNIA I WITNESSED HALLOWEEN MASSES, DANCING MASSES EVEN DURITTO CORN CHIP MASSES AND WHEN I WENT TO “NORMAL” NOVUS ORDO PARISH MASSES I SAW LITTLE IF ANY “EXTERNAL” DIFFERENCES IN THE SERVICES OF THE PROTESTANT CHURCHES I HAD BEEN BROUGHT UP IN, SO MUCH FOR LEX ORANDI-LEX CREDENDI . PRIOR TO SUMMORUM PONTIFICUM I WAS RIDICULED FOR EVEN HINTING AT A TRIDENTINE LITURGY AT THE PARISH LEVEL AND OUR LOCAL ORDINARY(IN ONE INSTANCE) FORCED A WOMEN TO STAND TO RECIEVE THE TRANSUBSTANTIATED SPECIES. I WALKED OUT AND HAVE NOT BEEN INSIDE A CATHOLIC CHURCH IN 7 YEARS. BUT FOLKS I’M BACK ALONG WITH SUMMORUM PONTIFICUM. MY ATTITUDE VIS A VIS THE VENACULAR MASS IS QUITE SIMPLE IF THATS YOUR PREFERENCE KEWL, BUT DON’T YOU DARE DIMINISH ME FOR ATTENDING THE 1700 YR OLD DIVINE LITURGY, THE TRIDENTINE MASS, THAT I WILL NOT TOLERATE ANY LONGER, I DON’T HAVE TO, EITHER FROM PRIEST, BISHOP OR LAYMEN ALIKE. I OBEY THE MAN IN ROME POPE BENEDICT 16TH WHO AFTER ALL IS THE MESSIAHS REPRESENTATIVE ON THIS LITTLE PLANET.
I grew up with the Traditional Latin Mass, it was the Most
Sacred Form of worship in the Roman Catholic Church.
My faith was shaken in the Church when I found out that it was only by indult that a priest could say the Traditional Mass.
How could something Sacred one day be ridiculed and denied the next?
It’s almost has if purposely everything that we held Sacred, and every thing that visibly identified us has Catholic was thrown out to embrace ecumenicism.
Was it Luther that said take away their Mass and you destroy the Catholic Church?
Thank God for Pope Benedict, I will finally be able to come home.